^^ Irrespective of the musical merits of this song, I don't regard this as subversive music. It's whingeing music; it's saying "we are not happy","we don't like society", etc. but it's totally negative, it's not saying, or even implying, what needs to be done to improve society.
Subversive? There were a number of Australian artists of the1980's who were genuinely subversive. Midnight Oil sang "It belongs to them, let's give it back". Whether you agree with that sentiment or not, this is putting a statement on the line: "This is what we think is wrong, and this is what we think should be done about it."
Long before that of course there were the protest singers of the 1960's - Phil Ochs, Bob Dylan, Country Joe, Barry Maguire, etc. Yes there was a point where it became fashionable, but before that an artist was actually putting his/her career on the line by putting forward an unpopular point of view. Joan Baez actually went to prison for being involved in a protest demonstration. Before that of course there was Woody Guthrie, Billie Holliday, and others, who did not just sing about protest, they lived it.
The Britpop music of the 90's subversive? Nah. That's not the music of subversion. It's the music of depression, of retreat. It's saying "things are bad and we're miserable". That's the low hanging fruit, because most people will readily agree with you and there you are with "credibility". Same could be said for much of the music of the punk era, as well as later acts like The Jam. "Anarchy in the UK" offered no remedies, no ideas. It just said "We're miserable, we're mad, so we want to kick somebody."
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07-02-2017, 14:04
(This post was last modified: 07-02-2017, 14:10 by flinty.)
bob_32_116 Wrote:^^ Irrespective of the musical merits of this song, I don't regard this as subversive music. It's whingeing music; it's saying "we are not happy","we don't like society", etc. but it's totally negative, it's not saying, or even implying, what needs to be done to improve society.
Subversive? There were a number of Australian artists of the1980's who were genuinely subversive. Midnight Oil sang "It belongs to them, let's give it back". Whether you agree with that sentiment or not, this is putting a statement on the line: "This is what we think is wrong, and this is what we think should be done about it."
Long before that of course there were the protest singers of the 1960's - Phil Ochs, Bob Dylan, Country Joe, Barry Maguire, etc. Yes there was a point where it became fashionable, but before that an artist was actually putting his/her career on the line by putting forward an unpopular point of view. Joan Baez actually went to prison for being involved in a protest demonstration. Before that of course there was Woody Guthrie, Billie Holliday, and others, who did not just sing about protest, they lived it.
The Britpop music of the 90's subversive? Nah. That's not the music of subversion. It's the music of depression, of retreat. It's saying "things are bad and we're miserable". That's the low hanging fruit, because most people will readily agree with you and there you are with "credibility". Same could be said for much of the music of the punk era, as well as later acts like The Jam. "Anarchy in the UK" offered no remedies, no ideas. It just said "We're miserable, we're mad, so we want to kick somebody."
Well I think you need artists to whinge, complain, shout and scream about issues and maybe rock the boat. Better to have it then not. Must music dumbs down culture and creates a vacuous population full of apathy. Entertainment is Massively influential and helps shapes peoples thoughts, opinions, identities etc. Hollywood helps to perpetuate materialism, sexism and the objectification of women....................................and so on. So you need something in the art world to push against that superficial and debasing tyranny, otherwise we are pretty much fucked.
flinty Wrote:Well I think you need artists to whinge, complain, shout and scream about issues and maybe rock the boat. Better to have it then not. Must music dumbs down culture and creates a vacuous population full of apathy. Entertainment is Massively influential and helps shapes peoples thoughts, opinions, identities etc. Hollywood helps to perpetuate materialism, sexism and the objectification of women....................................and so on. So you need something in the art world to push against that superficial and debasing tyranny, otherwise we are pretty much fucked.
Yes that's true, whingeing is sometimes necessary and justified. But it's pretty easy to do, and not really setting yourself much of a challenge, to say "society is fucked". What specific things are wrong? That's what I'd rather they sing about. Even better, if they can sing about how they should be put right.
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bob_32_116 Wrote:^^ Irrespective of the musical merits of this song, I don't regard this as subversive music. It's whingeing music; it's saying "we are not happy","we don't like society", etc. but it's totally negative, it's not saying, or even implying, what needs to be done to improve society.
Subversive? There were a number of Australian artists of the1980's who were genuinely subversive. Midnight Oil sang "It belongs to them, let's give it back". Whether you agree with that sentiment or not, this is putting a statement on the line: "This is what we think is wrong, and this is what we think should be done about it."
Long before that of course there were the protest singers of the 1960's - Phil Ochs, Bob Dylan, Country Joe, Barry Maguire, etc. Yes there was a point where it became fashionable, but before that an artist was actually putting his/her career on the line by putting forward an unpopular point of view. Joan Baez actually went to prison for being involved in a protest demonstration. Before that of course there was Woody Guthrie, Billie Holliday, and others, who did not just sing about protest, they lived it.
The Britpop music of the 90's subversive? Nah. That's not the music of subversion. It's the music of depression, of retreat. It's saying "things are bad and we're miserable". That's the low hanging fruit, because most people will readily agree with you and there you are with "credibility". Same could be said for much of the music of the punk era, as well as later acts like The Jam. "Anarchy in the UK" offered no remedies, no ideas. It just said "We're miserable, we're mad, so we want to kick somebody."
I have to disagree with you when you mention The Jam,
they weren't were never in the same mold as most punk bands with negative,depressive lyrics that offered no solutions...
they did sing about the 'dull everyday lives' of working class England, as did Ray Davies and like Davies had 'make the most of what you've got' lyrics..
Paul Weller was so pissed off with those type of bands that emerged from the UK at that time he wrote a song for/about them, namely Johnny Rotten/Lydon inparticular called Scrape Away, of which the lyrics say it all:
"Scrape Away"
Your twisted cynicism - makes me feel sick -
Your open disgust for 'Idealistic naive'
You've given up hope you're jaded and ill
The trouble is your thoughts a catching disease
Ooh - you need to get away -
Ooh - you need a change of pace -
Because you're all dried up and you don't believe
You reckon I'm dreaming when I say I still feel real
You say you work for yourself and its the only way
But I look at you talking and to me you just scrape away -
What makes once young minds get in this state,
Is it age or just the social climate
You're talking like some ******* hardend MP
You're saying power's all!
And it's power you NEED!
Ooh - you need to get away -
Ooh - you need a change of place -
Because you've given up on hope -
You're emotionless -
You've no need for love it's just hate, hate, hate.
But I look at you shaking and it is you -
who is scraping away
You who is scraping away
"BTO....Bachman,Turner,Overweight
They were big in the 70s....for five minutes,on a Saturday,after lunch..." - Me 2014.
After I mentioned The Jam, CH took longer than I expected to chime in on the thread... :biggrin:
That song you posted does sum up the punk ethos pretty well. I admit that my impression of Jam lyrical themes was based on their few songs with which I am familiar, i.e. the big hits
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bob_32_116 Wrote:Yes that's true, whingeing is sometimes necessary and justified. But it's pretty easy to do, and not really setting yourself much of a challenge, to say "society is fucked". What specific things are wrong? That's what I'd rather they sing about. Even better, if they can sing about how they should be put right.
I do hear what you are saying. I do think rebellious music could be more positive, offering more solutions etc.........To me the rave music from the 90s was rebellious. About having fun, getting high and breaking out from the routine.
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I hate poetry but this aint bad
[video=youtube;PWjbSBF9eVA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWjbSBF9eVA[/video]
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[video=youtube;X9jXnZS3ouU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9jXnZS3ouU[/video]
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[video=youtube;6biDo7F9RiU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6biDo7F9RiU[/video]
Posts: 53
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[video=youtube;zirr0LcHdDw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zirr0LcHdDw[/video]
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